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The discussion is happening in the mailing list http://lists.wikicities.com/pipermail/fci-l/2006-January/thread.html

[FOSS-EDU-IN] CBSE syllabus

Venkatesh Hariharan

 Jan 5 

I spoke to officials at CBSE and they informed me that the CBSE syllabus for 2006-2007 has been made vendor neutral. The web site at www.cbse.nic.in does not reflect this yet but they have promised me that the new syllabus will be up soon.

This is a good way to start the new year. Will update everyone as soon as the new syllabus is up on the web.

Regards,

Venky


Tejas Dinkar

Jan 5 

Venkatesh Hariharan wrote:

>I spoke to officials at CBSE and they informed me that the CBSE syllabus >for 2006-2007 has been made vendor neutral. The web site at >www.cbse.nic.in does not reflect this yet but they have promised me that >the new syllabus will be up soon. > > Great Work Venky!!

But just one question.

I graduated from CBSE exactly 6 months ago. (Grade 12th)

The Syllabus was already fairly Vendor Neutral IIRC.

There were two main Sections:

C++ There was the odd 'getch()' or 'clrscr()' here and there, but I don't believe it was too bad.

SQL I did use some SQL client that was windows based, and connected to MS Access, but in he exams the questions were all on SQL. ie, commands like SELECT, INSERT ....

I think at best the `changes in syllabus` may be the removal of the question: name at least 3 functions declared in conio.h

It is the College Syllabus we Really Need to Target Gja


Venkatesh Hariharan

 Jan 5 

On Thu, 2006-01-05 at 18:07 +0530, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > Venkatesh Hariharan wrote: > > >I spoke to officials at CBSE and they informed me that the CBSE syllabus > >for 2006-2007 has been made vendor neutral. The web site at > >www.cbse.nic.in does not reflect this yet but they have promised me that > >the new syllabus will be up soon. > > > > > Great Work Venky!!

Thanks, Tejas. We did follow-up with CBSE and Ministry of HRD over the last few months I am sure that there were others who chipped in.

> > But just one question. > > I graduated from CBSE exactly 6 months ago. (Grade 12th) > > The Syllabus was already fairly Vendor Neutral IIRC. >

Check the Informatics syllabus:

http://www.cbse.nic.in/curric~1/informatics%20.pdf

Out of 17 books prescribed, 12 are Visual Basic books!

Venky


Kushal Das

  Jan 5 

On Thursday 05 January 2006 18:32, Venkatesh Hariharan wrote:

> Thanks, Tejas. We did follow-up with CBSE and Ministry of HRD over the > last few months I am sure that there were others who chipped in. > > > But just one question. > > > > I graduated from CBSE exactly 6 months ago. (Grade 12th) > > > > The Syllabus was already fairly Vendor Neutral IIRC. > > Check the Informatics syllabus: > > http://www.cbse.nic.in/curric~1/informatics%20.pdf > > Out of 17 books prescribed, 12 are Visual Basic books! > > Venky I am going back to Durgapur (West Bengal) on 17th of this month. There I will talk to the schools (mainly CBSE ) about introducing FOSS . Except that VB stuff all other things can easily be done using FOSS tools. What you people say?

Regards, Kushal


Rahul Sundaram

 Jan 5 

Hi

>I am going back to Durgapur (West Bengal) on 17th of this month. There I will >talk to the schools (mainly CBSE ) about introducing FOSS . Except that VB >stuff all other things can easily be done using FOSS tools. >What you people say? > > VB itself is being phased out in favor of VB.NET so thats not going to be a good answer going forward. If you want capable cross platform RAD tools, Python with a IDE like Eclipse etc might fit the bill especially for introductory material to programming. Gambas is sort of of like VB but I havent really looked into it much yet.


प्रवीण् ए (Praveen A)

 Jan 5 


2006/1/5, Rahul Sundaram :


   VB itself is being phased out in favor of VB.NET so thats not going to
   be a good answer going forward. If you want capable cross platform RAD
   tools, Python with a IDE like Eclipse etc might fit the bill especially
   for introductory material to programming. Gambas is sort of of like VB
   but I havent really looked into it much yet.


I also think python is the way forward. We should try to get python into curriculam.


--

           "GNU is the system, and Linux is the  kernel."

A proud GNU user http://www.gnu.org Me scribbles at http://www.pravi.co.nr


Moinak Ghosh

 Jan 5 

प्रवीण् ए (Praveen A) wrote:

> 2006/1/5, Rahul Sundaram : > > [...] > tools, Python with a IDE like Eclipse etc might fit the bill > especially > for introductory material to programming. Gambas is sort of of like VB > but I havent really looked into it much yet. > > > I also think python is the way forward. We should try to get python > into curriculam.

+1. Python is an advanced Object Oriented extensible language that provides a rich syntax and powerful expresiveness. I have used Python and personally find it extremely comfortable to use and more powerful than any VB thing. Though I have not looked at Gambas as well, might be worth looking at for comparison's sake.

Regards, Moinak.

> > > -- > "GNU is the system, and Linux is the kernel." > A proud GNU user http://www.gnu.org > Me scribbles at http://www.pravi.co.nr > >------------------------------------------------------------------------


Tejas Dinkar

Jan 5 

वीण् ए (Praveen A) wrote:

>> I also think python is the way forward. We should try to get python >> into curriculam. > Hmmmm, for some reason I seem to think this is a bad Idea. (yes, I know... exact opposite of my stand so far)

I think introducing functional programming at that level is not such a great idea.

If you read the syllabus, it gives the primary objective as: To Gain Progamming Skills in GUI programming tool and database creation in RDBMS.

Now python is a cool language, but it's GUI is not so simple to learn. In fact, I really doubt that you can use pyGTK in windows.

So this again ties us down to one platform. Not windows, but to *nix platforms. And even if it was platform indepedent, the GUI for python (at least pyGTK) is really overkill.

Is there some other programming language which can be used to easily create GUI applications?

Something just like VB, but is foss... And not legally encoumbered....

I was thinking... perhaps PHP?

Instead of designing a GUI, they can design a web application.

Just My Re. 1 (at Today's Rate ... roughly $0.02)

 Gja


Rahul Sundaram

Hi

> Hmmmm, for some reason I seem to think this is a bad Idea. (yes, I > know... exact opposite of my stand so far) > > I think introducing functional programming at that level is not such a > great idea.

That would be a point of contention. http://www.python.org/sigs/edu-sig/

> > If you read the syllabus, it gives the primary objective as: > To Gain Progamming Skills in GUI programming tool and database > creation in RDBMS. > > Now python is a cool language, but it's GUI is not so simple to learn. > In fact, I really doubt that you can use pyGTK in windows.

Several apps in this list http://pygtk.org/applications.html can run in Windows pretty well. Alternatively GCJ presents a Free Java implementation( http://gcc.gnu.org/java/). Has worked pretty well for Fedora. Ongoing progress for other distributions.

> > So this again ties us down to one platform. Not windows, but to *nix > platforms. And even if it was platform indepedent, the GUI for python > (at least pyGTK) is really overkill.

Why?

> > Is there some other programming language which can be used to easily > create GUI applications? > > Something just like VB, but is foss... And not legally encoumbered....

It would be require mainstream support including commercially deployments for CBSE to consider picking it up. Obscure language and applications wouldnt fit the bill.

> > I was thinking... perhaps PHP?

What toolkit do you want to combine with PHP?. Its not designed for GUI applications anyway.

>Instead of designing a GUI, they can design a web application.

Suggesting both a change in syllabus and software at the same time can be harder to get through.


Moinak Ghosh

Tejas Dinkar wrote:

> वीण् ए (Praveen A) wrote: > >>> I also think python is the way forward. We should try to get python >>> into curriculam. >> > Hmmmm, for some reason I seem to think this is a bad Idea. (yes, I > know... exact opposite of my stand so far) > > I think introducing functional programming at that level is not such a > great idea.

 Python at it's base is a procedural and object oriented language. It

does have inherent

 functional capabilities but a course can be designed to start with

basics and leave the

 functional stuff for advanced levels.

> If you read the syllabus, it gives the primary objective as: > To Gain Progamming Skills in GUI programming tool and database > creation in RDBMS. > > Now python is a cool language, but it's GUI is not so simple to learn. > In fact, I really doubt that you can use pyGTK in windows.

 What about wxPython ? WxWindows is legally unencumbered (LGPL)

cross-platform Object Oriented

 GUI tool kit. Or even Tkinter can be used easily. It is lightweight,

stable, easy to use and has been tested

 well on *nix and Windows. So this does not tie us down to any

particular platform choice.

> So this again ties us down to one platform. Not windows, but to *nix > platforms. And even if it was platform indepedent, the GUI for python > (at least pyGTK) is really overkill. > > Is there some other programming language which can be used to easily > create GUI applications?

Another cross-platform language with GUI that comes to mind is Tcl/Tk. But
I do not feel that it is suited to a programming language course.

> Something just like VB, but is foss... And not legally encoumbered.... > > I was thinking... perhaps PHP? > > Instead of designing a GUI, they can design a web application.

 Web programming is a whole new dimension - better kept separate from

a beginner's

 programming language course.
 I addition I feel IDEs are a bad thing to introduce to a beginner.

That way they never

 get to understand the building blocks. A text editor and an

interpreter are good things

 to start with. I consider myself lucky because my introduction to

programming started

 with BBC Basic language on the  BBC Microcomputer (8 bit Motorola

6502 running

 at 1 MHz) and from there I have witnessed the entire evolution to

current 3GLs on

 multi-core multi-GHz processors.
 Just my nibble.

Regards, Moinak.


Kushal Das

On Friday 06 January 2006 00:10, Moinak Ghosh wrote: > Tejas Dinkar wrote: > > वीण् ए (Praveen A) wrote: > >>> I also think python is the way forward. We should try to get python > >>> into curriculam. > > > > Hmmmm, for some reason I seem to think this is a bad Idea. (yes, I > > know... exact opposite of my stand so far) > > > > I think introducing functional programming at that level is not such a > > great idea. > > Python at it's base is a procedural and object oriented language. It > does have inherent > functional capabilities but a course can be designed to start with > basics and leave the > functional stuff for advanced levels. Hey, I am going to talk about how to introduce FOSS into current curriculum in the schools. We can continue discussing wheather Python will be a part of it or not(my vote for in). But it should be a part in college level. I was student of West Bengal University of Technology. We used to have a good syllabus, but of almost no use in professional life. All the colleges are teaching C & C++ using turbo editors. Most of the B.Tech students there, saw computer first time in the college lab with C programming.

So, if they started it in gcc(without any IDE), I do believe that they can understand programming in a better way. If they learn VB first & then python still they can understand how powerfull it is. Like the Data Structure syllabus, the coding in C is good, but in the same time if they see its original power using Python , it will save a lot of time (IDEA taken from : Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay).

Regards, Kushal


Tejas Dinkar

Moinak Ghosh wrote:

> What about wxPython ? WxWindows is legally unencumbered (LGPL) > cross-platform Object Oriented > GUI tool kit. Or even Tkinter can be used easily. It is lightweight, > stable, easy to use and has been tested

See, this is my main concern...

http://www.wxpython.org/test7.py.html

These students will have to write a practical exam on whatever they are doing. The reason VB is so popular is because you have a square. You select the text box tool, and draw a text box. Give it a name. There is no ugly packing. And the commands to execute on click, or on change... in VB, you just have to double click on a `button`, and it will take you to a screen where you can give the commands to execute onclick.

That link up there is the second example given. It just draws two text boxes with the size written in. Yes, the script will make sense in time, but would YOU be able to memorise the syntax, and the case for each item in that?

look at this random line: self.sizeCtrl.SetValue("%s, %s" % (size.width, size.height))

any student will get confused between sizeCtrl.SetValue, SizeCrtl.SetValue, SizeCtrl.setValue, etc... as a result many will get stuck on simple things such as this. Which could be fatal in an exam.

Now, could YOU take care of this when you have 5 subjects to worry about? Not to mention entrance exams such as your IIT-JEE, AIEEE, BITS, CET, WBJEE, SAT, Manipal, COMED-K... (all of which DO have seperate syllabus).

Python may be a good thing to hack on as a CBSE project... but you have to remember that this would take a LOT more time than a project written in Visual Basic.

Teachers could be trained, I'm not denying it, and this model may work.

But *I* personally feel that we would tax the students a lot. I did not take infomation science, so it may be different, but this is how the situation was in CS (with C++).

In any case, I suggest giving students the choice. Those who want to be safe, may take VB, and those who want to be free can take python.

However, even if they use VB, I just want people to know that there ARE free alternatives. And I'm sure many schools wil prefer a free RDBMS for VB to connect to.

And this is something that someone said at FOSS.in: """ I'd rather have someone developing free software using Visual Basic, than Hoarding software written in any FOSS language.

More than encouraging people to use FOSS, we have to teach them the values behind it. The Process of Developing it. The Idea that you have the *Freedom* to customise your software. If someone is talking about FOSS in a school. 99.1415% of the time they will say `so then in 1992, a student named Linus....`. Nothing else. They will say `Hense linux is called Free and Open Source. Free because it doesn't cost anything and Open Source, because you can download the source code`. And that is it.

A good hacker can change his choice of OS and Language in a heartbeat. It takes much longer to change an ideology """

(actually, I made up about 50% of that. But the general statement is valid)


Rahul Sundaram

Tejas Dinkar wrote:

> Moinak Ghosh wrote: > >> What about wxPython ? WxWindows is legally unencumbered (LGPL) >> cross-platform Object Oriented >> GUI tool kit. Or even Tkinter can be used easily. It is >> lightweight, stable, easy to use and has been tested > > > See, this is my main concern... > > http://www.wxpython.org/test7.py.html > > These students will have to write a practical exam on whatever they > are doing. The reason VB is so popular is because you have a square. > You select the text box tool, and draw a text box. Give it a name. > There is no ugly packing. And the commands to execute on click, or on > change... in VB, you just have to double click on a `button`, and it > will take you to a screen where you can give the commands to execute > onclick.

Eclipse with python plugins or Glade can do something similar. Its important to differentiate here between VB the language and the functionality provided by a IDE like Visual Studio.


Sarath Lakshman

Hi,

Great news. FS in CBSE.

when will FS come to ur SCERT syllabus!! Please see:

http://mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2005-October/

http://mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2005-August/

Find topics:'Need Free software in 11th Class' and 'Which is the standard compiler? Can't we use gcc?'

Really this sounds great.

Instead of VB, its nice to use Gambas. I am a regular Gambas user. I created a lot of small apps using gambas. I was a VB lover. After I got in to GNU/Linux world, Gambas is favourite for me.

There is an another == for VB. Real Basic. but its not GPL. Gambas is far more better than it too :)

My first VB app was a nice Periodic table software. Now I'm working to re-make it using Gambas. It will be out soon. It will be a nice tool for school students. My Periodic table app was a worthy app. A lot of students enjoyed it :))

Happy Gambas programming :)


Regrds, Sarath Lakshman www.sarathlakshman.info


On 1/5/06, Moinak Ghosh wrote:

   प्रवीण् ए (Praveen A) wrote:
   > 2006/1/5, Rahul Sundaram :
   >
   >     [...]
   >     tools, Python with a IDE like Eclipse etc might fit the bill
   >     especially
   >     for introductory material to programming. Gambas is sort of of like VB
   >     but I havent really looked into it much yet.
   >
   >
   > I also think python is the way forward. We should try to get python
   > into curriculam.
   +1. Python is an advanced Object Oriented extensible language that provides
   a rich syntax and powerful expresiveness. I have used Python and personally
   find it extremely comfortable to use and more powerful than any VB thing.
   Though I have not looked at Gambas as well, might be worth looking at
   for comparison's sake.
   Regards,
   Moinak.

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